Episode III: Robert Irwin - Seeing is forgetting the names of the thing one sees.

00:00:03: Welcome to Art Unquoted.

00:00:05: I am Isenia Benin

00:00:07: and I'm Charlotte de Saga.

00:00:09: We are two Berlin-based art professionals who think that in a world of noise revealing things can sometimes be found in few words.

00:00:20: In each episode we take single quote, see where it leads us.

00:00:24: This is spark and friction.

00:00:32: Someone who prefers to remain

00:00:34: unseen makes

00:00:35: Art Unquote possible.

00:00:36: The generosity is the invisible foundation of everything you hear.

00:00:40: We dedicate this episode with deep

00:00:43: gratitude.".

00:00:46: And now we have to look on American artist Robert Irwin, whose entire practice was devoted to a single obsessive question – how do we actually see?

00:00:57: He moved from painting to sculpture to light installation to site-specific works always asking the same thing relentlessly.

00:01:06: He gave his entire life to understanding perception.

00:01:09: He passed away in two thousand twenty three at the age of ninety

00:01:13: nine Yeah, and he left us with a very elegant statement about art and vision.

00:01:19: Seeing is forgetting The name off-the thing one sees

00:01:23: truly beautiful.

00:01:24: yeah

00:01:24: it Is.

00:01:25: although the court doesn't originate With urban It stems originally from Paul Valérie, the French poet and philosopher who lived from eighteen seventy-one to nineteen forty five.

00:01:37: But Urban made it his own!

00:01:39: He became so central towards thinking –so woven into practice– that is now inseparable form his name The book about him written by Laurence Weschler in nineteen eighty two uses it as a title.

00:01:53: And the book is really about Erwin's artistic philosophy and his obsession with pure perception, with visual experience stripped of language.

00:02:03: Of naming all the cognitive baggage we carry into a

00:02:07: room.".

00:02:08: So it's not that Erwin coined to this term.

00:02:10: he inhabited and lifted?

00:02:12: Yeah right but I want you push back slightly on your framing.

00:02:15: You said He was devoted to understanding perception.

00:02:20: I'd say he was devoted to disrupting it.

00:02:23: There's a difference, understanding suggests clarity and resolution.

00:02:27: Erwin wasn't interested in that.

00:02:30: He wanted make you uncomfortable... ...he want strip away your assumptions about what are looking at.

00:02:37: Well the same time there is something generous in disruption.

00:02:42: You know, when you stand in front of one of his installations let's say the Scream installations or The Lightworks there is this moment where you realize.

00:02:50: You've been seeing the whole time But you haven't been aware that you are actually seeing it.

00:02:55: He's making your conscious off-the-act itself.

00:02:59: That's not aggressive.

00:03:00: That's quite intimate.

00:03:01: Yeah, intimate as a very good word but It's also confrontational because once you are aware of the act of seeing you can't unsee You can't go back to passive looking.

00:03:12: In a way, he's changed

00:03:27: you.".

00:03:28: then you're actually seeing it for the first time.

00:03:35: Yeah, which is almost impossible isn't it?

00:03:38: We are linguistic creatures we can't help but name things.

00:03:42: It's how we make sense of the world.

00:03:44: No...we can't have that true.

00:03:46: But I think Irwin really believed we could try and practice through his work Through experience with installations.

00:03:55: He was offering a kind training in forgetting and learning it.

00:04:00: And here's where people might ask, is that actually possible?

00:04:04: Or is Irvin and Valerie offering us a beautiful myth?

00:04:08: because the moment you're aware of trying to forget your name... You've already named an act or forgetting!

00:04:14: You caught in a loop.

00:04:17: Yeah maybe but I think this point isn't to achieve it to attempt.

00:04:25: The point is the attempt, they're reaching towards something beyond language and in that reaching something starts shifting.

00:04:32: Yeah for sure you become more attentive More present And your perceiving something Beyond Language.

00:04:38: This why I think Urban was such a profound artist.

00:04:42: When i look at art this what im searching For.

00:04:45: But You also sound like you've experienced it first time?

00:04:50: Absolutely You never forget standing in front of his work, but also... And this is strange to say through a conversation I had years ago with Lawrence Rushley.

00:05:00: He was from Berlin who's as you mentioned before the author of The Book about Irwin.

00:05:07: Lawrence talked about following Irwin around documenting his process and realizing that Irwin wasn't trying to create objects.

00:05:17: In no way he was trying to make experiences.

00:05:20: And Lawrence was saying that moments of heightened perception, and he understood the book itself couldn't capture it.

00:05:28: Perhaps only gestured?

00:05:31: The creation of experience became such an important aspect for contemporary art... ...and Erwin understood this decades earlier!

00:05:39: So you met Lawrence Weschler who wrote the definitive book on Irwin.

00:05:43: Yes, I did.

00:05:44: Years ago in Berlin and I met him through my work at the Getty Museum in Los Angeles where Erwin famously designed The Garden.

00:05:51: And Weschle was so aware about the limitations of his own project.

00:05:55: He knew that writing about Irwin's work Was In a way betrayal Of what Irwin was trying to do Especially since for years Irwin Did not let his installations be documented At all until he abandoned His Venice Beach Studio in nineteen seventy.

00:06:12: Because the moment you describe the experience in words, You've already lost it right?

00:06:16: Quite remarkable.

00:06:18: So Weschler was aware of the paradox that he was using language to describe something.

00:06:24: overcome language.

00:06:26: Yes, of course!

00:06:27: I think that's what makes this book so good, Charlotte.

00:06:30: Absolutely agree it is not trying to explain Erwin but trying to evoke him It quite impressionistic personal full of anecdotes and digressions like a conversation with the certain resemblance towards we do here

00:06:45: Trying to talk about something that resists talking about.

00:06:50: Are we succeeding or are we failing beautifully?

00:06:53: Hopefully,

00:06:53: hopefully both!

00:06:54: Yeah so here's my final thought...

00:06:56: Let's hear it!

00:06:58: Erwin spent ninety-five years asking how do we see?

00:07:02: and his answer was We don't not really Not.

00:07:05: until we forget To name what were looking at.

00:07:08: Not Until will let go of language And just be in the presence Of Something.

00:07:14: Is that natural, radical or spiritual?

00:07:17: All of it.

00:07:17: And I think that's why his work is timeless because in the world of constant naming, constant categorizing, constant digital mediation we're all hungry for their experience of truly seeing.

00:07:30: To forget the names of things we see – what a relief!

00:07:34: Yes to forget the name of those things.

00:07:37: And that's exactly what we're trying to do here in this podcast.

00:07:40: We are using words, quotes or two points towards something that exists beyond words

00:07:45: and I think while doing so some thing happens.

00:07:49: no understanding shifts our perception deepens.

00:07:53: isn't it already something?

00:08:02: That is all the time for today!

00:08:04: If you enjoyed this episode please subscribe to Art Unquoted wherever you listen.

00:08:09: It helps other listeners find

00:08:11: us And we will be back soon with more ideas to unpack.

00:08:15: Thanks for listening!